Although I’m guilty of importing things like bikes and skis from France & Germany into Switzerland, the local dealers are so expensive you can buy stuff cheaper in Germany even without the VAT reclaim.
Thing is, your average person likes a good deal. I’ve bought ski’s from germany and am looking at buying a bike from there. I’ve also been known to bring booze out of Andora, and cigs to sell in resort cos its cheaper. German supermarkets have such a good selection of all foods and if you go to big Swiss towns, or even Super U’s and Casino’s you will now find “world” isles. Of course, in a few weeks when I head over for the summer I’ll bring some local cider, some bakewell tart and other tasty UK things but once here I have no problem with French goods and if you’ve made the decisons to ex-patoriate then you should be able to enjoy the joys of it all too!
No one has mentioned it yet, and I’m not the most economically minded person. But France is expensive theses days, so is the U.K. Now we have Ireland struggling, Portugal struggling with the euro, who’s next? People who may have bought property, be them brits or not, 5-10 years ago when things were a little more favourable price wise could now be struggling with keeping ‘cold beds’ at bay. Raising rental prices to cover their overheads would lead to less being spent locally on shopping, food, drink, etc. To improve an ski area economy money needs to be spent locally.
resort wise:
the smaller resorts in the Jura and Vosges, etc and even in the alps will as mentioned struggle if winters are poor but hopefully summers can prove useful revenue earners. However if we now have a run of good winters will people who have perhaps not skiied so much in recent years want to try out big resorts or cheaper ones? The dutch, brits, etc will probably push back to big names and they will keep chugging on. Locals who ski weekends may have even sold gear in poorer winters and not be able to get out again. I don’t know really. Little resorts are difficult especially if they need to run snow canons due to poor snow or mass use of pistes.
I’ve bought ski’s from germany and am looking at buying a bike from there.
I imported a commuter bike from Germany into Switzerland and I still have a bad conscience about it. It was 350 euros compared to around 1000 CHF (with VAT discount). I have a bad conscience because I visited a couple of Swiss dealers while looking for models and the local bike shops were really knowledgeable and pleasant people… one an ex Tour de France rider and the kind of people who deserve to have a working business. One bike shop stocked Merida, the bike was great but I didn’t want Shimano hub brakes. The other had a Felt model I liked. I dunno, I guess I’m going to consumer bargain basement hell. That said I would have bough in France at the excellent Routens even with a premium but hub geared bikes are not imported into France in general.
OliC - 05 May 2011 10:40 PM
some bakewell tart
Mmmmmm bakewell tart, I’ve not eaten one for 20 years. Lemon curd tart would do me too, although I’ll settle for a tarte au citron at a pinch it is not the same. I must admit to buying Sunpat Peanut Butter from the local Casino. It is outrageously expensive and imported via the English supermarket in Antibes. I would eat the French stuff but Sunpat has peanuts and not much else in it and the French brands are 50% palm oil.
OliC - 05 May 2011 10:40 PM
the smaller resorts in the Jura and Vosges, etc and even in the alps will as mentioned struggle if winters are poor but hopefully summers can prove useful revenue earners. However if we now have a run of good winters will people who have perhaps not skiied so much in recent years want to try out big resorts or cheaper ones? The dutch, brits, etc will probably push back to big names and they will keep chugging on. Locals who ski weekends may have even sold gear in poorer winters and not be able to get out again. I don’t know really. Little resorts are difficult especially if they need to run snow canons due to poor snow or mass use of pistes.
Good points. I know a lot of French who never think of skiing small resorts these days and Brits want to ski different pistes every day. Small resorts are interesting as they often have back bowls and such like where you can do some good off piste without dealing with the wide-ski heroes. In the Jura la Dole is a good example. The top lift arrives right by the Airport Radar and some epic, if short, steep pitches as well as some more mellow stuff. You just need to skin or hitch back to the lifts.
I suspect Entre-les-Fourgs will join the list of dead ski resorts.
Oops, this has obviously generated a lively response - well done David for reporting it and I appear to have been the first to take the bait
If I can respond further to the mix of comments received, some of them contradictory, then Ise, it’s a bit rich to suggest that Switzerland should stop foreigners at the border, when their economy is based on tax evasion (I’m sure they would like us to refer to this as tax avoidance) to the detriment of other more heavily taxed countries.
In addition, I’m not so sure that French residents pay more tax in subsidising second home owners - as one of those people, I pay the full rate of Taxe De Habitation, Taxe De Fonciere, Charges de Proprietaire and Charges de Commune and a few others that continue to be dreampt up - I even contribute to the ski resort’s Navette, that I do not need to use.
I think Trevor hit the nail on the head and I support his comments in their entireity - I similarly live in a second home area, in Wales and whilst there is jealousy and criticism of this sector, when I think sensibly about this, it has brought another dimension to what was once a detioriorating village with the frightening prospect of a lot of the locals looking remarkably alike The village now has a vibrancy, admittedly mostly on weekends but then most of us have little time during the week to benefit from where we live - after a 10 hour day, it’s cycle home (the best part) have dinner and fall asleep in the chair - then wake up and make responses on Piste Hors
Ise is spot on with his comments on obtaining rentals - I know so many homes have been impossible to rent this Winter, I think, due to the economy, over development and the poor conditions.
I really do not think another tax is the solution - again making a comparison with holiday homes in parts of the UK, we actually grant a 10% reduction in rates - I do not support this or understand the economies of it either. I love France, the people and their lifestyle but it has become an increasingly expensive place to spend time there and that is sad - I do hope the government see sense but knowing government’s and their propensity to waste money, I do not hold out much hope!
Oops, this has obviously generated a lively response - well done David for reporting it and I appear to have been the first to take the bait
If I can respond further to the mix of comments received, some of them contradictory, then Ise, it’s a bit rich to suggest that Switzerland should stop foreigners at the border, when their economy is based on tax evasion (I’m sure they would like us to refer to this as tax avoidance) to the detriment of other more heavily taxed countries.
The economy’s not based on tax evasion, that’s a silly thing to say. Some Swiss cantons offer good corporate tax deals, some other countries do as well like Ireland. Some other countries like the UK, France and Germany offer massive subsidies and state support to companies to locate there.
phil - 06 May 2011 12:32 AM
In addition, I’m not so sure that French residents pay more tax in subsidising second home owners - as one of those people, I pay the full rate of Taxe De Habitation, Taxe De Fonciere, Charges de Proprietaire and Charges de Commune and a few others that continue to be dreampt up - I even contribute to the ski resort’s Navette, that I do not need to use.
you’re not paying income tax are you? if you put your tax contribution in a pile next to someone who lived there and swept the streets you’d have the smaller pile would you not?
Thing is, your average person likes a good deal. I’ve bought ski’s from germany and am looking at buying a bike from there. I’ve also been known to bring booze out of Andora, and cigs to sell in resort cos its cheaper.
I bought my new Ghost AMR 5900 in Germany from a small dealer there (http://www.veloschopf.de/ brilliant, highly recommended), in price terms no dealer in Switzerland was even close. It’s a lot to do with Switzerland being a small country and not having a huge retail sector I suspect.
so, in terms of all these comments about France being expensive? is it? I’d not noticed, aren’t people from the UK really complaining about the exchange rate? I know it’s dire against the franc, I can buy a jacket in the UK but working there is a dead loss, I can barely cover costs.
Its not just the Alps where there are empty second properties, have a look at parts of Cornwall and Devon in the UK and you will see the same thing, though nearly all second homes owners there are British.
The French love to complain about “rich” foreigners buying up property in the Alps and the Dordogne, but quite happily forget about somewhere like Carnac in Southern Brittany, where there is road after road of large detached houses owned by the french which are empty for 11 months of the year.
This is simply a reflection of increased relative wealth, and the EU which enables people to move or buy property where ever they want. Basically free market enconomics in action which a knee jerk tax will not stop or change.
Its not just the Alps where there are empty second properties, have a look at parts of Cornwall and Devon in the UK and you will see the same thing, though nearly all second homes owners there are British.
The French love to complain about “rich” foreigners buying up property in the Alps and the Dordogne, but quite happily forget about somewhere like Carnac in Southern Brittany, where there is road after road of large detached houses owned by the french which are empty for 11 months of the year.
This is simply a reflection of increased relative wealth, and the EU which enables people to move or buy property where ever they want. Basically free market enconomics in action which a knee jerk tax will not stop or change.
all the French owners of the empty houses are paying wealth tax on them though, in fact all the French owners of empty houses in Cornwall and Devon are also paying wealth tax on them. It’s only their non-French neighbours that aren’t.
If the proportion of foreign ownership is increasing then you can see why the tax regime might be reviewed. If your free market economics isn’t going to be stopped or changed by the new tax then it rather sounds like the new tax is about the right level doesn’t it? Wouldn’t the right level be one that doesn’t deter the activity being taxed?
I own a property in the Chamonix valley, why? I love the place.
I pay all my French taxes that I’m required to pay, including tax on my rental income. I’m happy paying tax if its seen as reasonably fair. I have no vote in France and I’m therefore taxed without representation.
I spend 4 to 6 weeks a year there, the plan is as I get more time I’ll spend longer there (and spend more money) - I’m keen to support the locality, after all its one of may favourite places.
If I didn’t own my apartment, I wouldn’t go there as often, I might even be tempted to go and spend my money in a US ski resort.
If I’m taxed too much I might have to sell - if lots of others did this property prices would be severely depressed as over supply results. This would hit locals too. (Even with the proposed tax I would be a long way off this, but it sets a precedent).
On another point, I buy my groceries in the local Super-U supermarket, and judging by how busy the supermarket is and the amount of English spoken, so do most of the English people staying in Les Houches, I can’t imagine that the amount people bring over in cars (I wonder how much is imported to the UK from France in the first place) makes a significant difference.
The point I’m trying to make, badly, is that the world is interconnected and we got wealthy (and anybody who has time to spend skiing is either wealthy in money, or time or both) because of globalisation. This is particularly true of the Swiss, whose banks invest internationally, but of all other Swiss industry that must rely on exports. Disrupt the free movement of people and goods and we’ll all get poorer.
By-the-way interesting discussion on snow making - if the climate change people are right, how is snow making going to help? It requires low temperatures, surely its only of use in cold dry winters (or warm winters with a cold start, like this one). If the IPCC projections are right (IF) then surely we can forget skiing at lower levels and snow making isn’t going to help one bit.
The is a new tax for overseas owners, French owners pay wealth tax already. In fact, it’s not just the French, a lot of countries have a wealth tax so their residents are paying tax on properties in France already, presumably they’ll be covered under double taxation agreements so this won’t impact them much.
Some of the economic activity around apartments owned by people from outside France is of no major benefit to the local economy, a lot of the rental income isn’t being taxed or spent locally at all. I watched the skip outside the apartment block next door they built last year fill up with packing material from UK stores and I know when the English owners/tenants are in there just simply by observing the amount of UK food packaging that’s appearing around the bins.
I didn’t do that when I owned a property in France and lived in Germany/Switzerland/UK and apparently you don’t either, that’s good but we’re not the majority This is pistehors, it’s an informed elite
It does actually cost money to run your commune as a tourist destination, many communes in Switzerland that are tourist destinations levy higher income tax rates because the normal tax on activity isn’t enough to cover the additional costs. That’s something to think about, it means that while you might think there’s increased activity related to tourism it’s not enough to cover the increased costs. If tourism were such a goldmine then there’d be enough revenue from business tax that we could all live income tax free in the mountains and that ain’t so. And there’s two reasons for that, first, it’s a low income activity so people aren’t paying a lot of tax, and second, the costs are higher than a “normal” commune down on the plateau.
...snow making… good point. Once of the features of artificial snow is that it sticks around longer though, it’s compact and better bonded than fallen snow so it takes a lot of energy to break up. That’s good for skiers and bad in the spring when it’s smothering the meadows. So it will help a bit in some marginal places but it’s not enough in some locations. As David mentioned in the context of the cold ground, working the snow with machines creates better bonded and longer lasting snow as well of course. It’s got a horrible impact on the environment which ought to be enough to make people think.
Ise, please do not delude yourself with your statement that Switzerland is not a tax haven over and above most of the other members of the EU. I know of several friends and acquantances that have sold their businesses in the UK, to then spend a few years in Switzerland to avoid tax!
You only have to walk down the corridors of Geneve airport and be faced with the adverts on the walls relating to “private Swiss banking and wealth retention” to realise that the state sponsors supporting a level of tax evasion to the detriment of full members of the EU, of which Switzerland is not one! In fact, I believe Switzerland plays a canny game in not being a full member of the EU and therefore not having to comply with our collectve regulations, to it’s own advantage.
you’re not paying income tax are you? if you put your tax contribution in a pile next to someone who lived there and swept the streets you’d have the smaller pile would you not?
I do pay income tax in the UK, where I am resident and would agree that my tax contribution in France is most likely less than a French resident, but then I am not tapping in to many of the advantages that that Resident enjoys. If we segregate holiday home owners from residents, as you appear to support, France already having enticed them there in the first place, then the most likely outcome is animosity and a reluctance to integrate and support local economies.
Born and bred in Wales, I have actual experience of this - in our ignorance, we once used to burn down holiday homes in an ideology of fending off foreign home ownership - it was short sighted and detrimental to the country and was not representative of the majority of the Welsh population.
To reiterate, I am more than happy to pay my share of local taxes, as long as they are in line with what others pay, but do not milk the situation to make me pay more - do that and I will reconsider my association with that locality and find a more appreciative place to call my second home, with the dream that one day, I will reside there - it is still a very big world and there are many places where the customer is appreciated! On that last point, I guess you run your own business, as I do and are aware that once you take your customer for granted and treat them with contempt, then your business is lost - your competitors will just rub their hands in delight.
After all that, I can’t see governements seeing reason - they squander our resources and have to extort funds by whatever means and which “ruffle the least amount of feathers”, to balance the books.
Some of you may note my series of responses are all written late at night - I am afraid they are all written after a glass or two of red wine - the first, I am glad to say, was French but subsequent ones have been Australian and tonight was Chilean - all good - I rest my case
PH really shouldn’t become a forum on international tax regimes but I’m not sure you’ve got all the facts quite correct there.
If you’re a billionaire seeking to avoid tax the about the best place to go live is the UK, if for example you were a Russian oligarch you’d settle in the UK and buy the odd football club. Or an Indian Steel billionaire and so on ad infinitum. The only rich that did (past tense, as in “in the past") benefit to any degree by coming to Switzerland would be people from the UK.
Why is it past tense? Because the deals are being thrown out. Zurich threw theirs out in a referendum and 5 more cantons will vote soon.
How generous was it? Not very, compared to, for example, the UK. They were taxed at 5 times the rental value of their property and barred from doing business here on penalty of taxation on all worldwide assets. If I were a Russian oligarch it’s a way, way better deal in the UK. I could negotiate a one time deal to enter the country, still do business there and not pay tax on the value of my 40 million pad in Knightsbridge or the 20 million country retreat.
There might be posters for banks in Geneva airport, it hardly means the country exists solely by private banking. I’ve seen posters for car manufacturers at Birmingham Airport and that’s not been working so well.
But more than anything else, if there’s two neighbours in an apartment block in France, one from the UK and one from Paris, why on earth is it fair and equitable for the Parisian to be paying more tax for his apartment? I don’t have any other opinion apart from that being clearly unfair.
You’re right, PH should not be a forum on International Tax regimes and I am sure neither of us are well qualified to discuss these in depth - I know for one, I am just relying on a very limited knowledge of these affairs and have put forward opinions gained from occassional “sideswipes” with the subject and possibly some sensationalism extracted from the so called, “popular press”. One thing I have noted though, is that this particular subject has been elevated to the “Most popular threads” section of PH
Fundamentally, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject, except I do agree with your final comment contained in the last paragraph of your last post and similarly would find that fair and equitable, but that was not what I believed David reported when this post was initiated.
My understanding, admittedly based on an assumption from the comments placed, was this tax was aimed exclusively at “foreigners” and would not be equitable with what the French currently pay and/or the thresholds set for them - that, I cannot stomach for the reasons I have previously sited.
Finally, if this was passed, would this not be another classic example of the French agreeing to a set of guidelines accepted by all member states and then going off and doing their own thing? (another view extracted from the popular press) Ironically, I do sometimes like their attitude on that context - think closed pistes, where in many instances the piste patrol are quite happy to turn a blind eye to anyone ducking a rope - try that in the USA and you are most likely to get arrested.
The village now has a vibrancy, admittedly mostly on weekends but then most of us have little time during the week to benefit from where we live - after a 10 hour day, it’s cycle home (the best part) have dinner and fall asleep in the chair - then wake up and make responses on Piste Hors
This is pistehors, it’s an informed elite 
