hamiltonian - 27 February 2013 06:06 PM

Ise et al (actually, may have been Damato...)
my understanding (as a normal member, albeit an auditor, who therefore has a tendency to read small print), is that SCGB’s defence is that it’s guides are volunteers, not remunerated… and also, as mentioned earlier, taking the approach of waiting to be challenged.  the principle of waiting for law to be enforced, for it to be defined, is not new.... (but not without risk!)

I think that’s spot on, I don’t believe they can know they’re alright. This is just the rehearsal of the defence. Their individual leaders operating in France are at risk of arrest, as indeed they are in other countries for that matter. I hope they’ve made that plain to the leaders, it’s a bit rough if they’ve not.

hamiltonian - 27 February 2013 06:06 PM

my personal view is that they may fall foul of the ruling

I think you’re right. And, in other countries, ie Switzerland, I think they’ll need a new defence. Provision of accommodation etc will be considered remuneration I think. And you can’t lead groups around the mountains in Switzerland for money unless you’re qualified.

hamiltonian - 27 February 2013 06:06 PM

No-one has mentioned the ‘ski hosting’ service offered in North American resorts - whilst they have a different approach to ‘in bounds’ v off piste, a model of ‘free’ on piste ‘leading’ seems to work quite well over there… I believe remuneration is in the form of a season pass in return for X sessions.  Any resort which picks up on this could be onto a winner… who knows, maybe they’d even dispense tissue and maps at lift stations, or even manage the queues when it gets busy (but I digress).

Either the Espace Diamant or one of the Val d’Arly resorts do this (Evasion Mt Blanc domain?). I think the guides are called “red coats” or somesuch.

hamiltonian - 27 February 2013 06:06 PM

I wonder what _really_ prompted the attack on the TO’s _this_ year, after 9 years of relatively peaceful ignoring of the rules....

Interesting point. There is an increasing problem with instructors arriving with tour buses from Eastern Europe and the Benelux/Swiss countries and blatantly teaching but as you say, all quiet on the TO leading front. I remember back in the late 90s the TOs I had contact with were telling their “leaders” not to wear uniforms and be very careful about the resort authorities. Although I remember Crystal in les 2 Alpes got to use the ski school lanes in agreement with the ESF. I guess it depended on how much business they were sending.

The ESF has been on the rack the last couple of years about safety, especially with off piste groups, so maybe they just wanted to spread some of the pain to the Tour Operators?

davidof - 27 February 2013 09:08 PM

Either the Espace Diamant or one of the Val d’Arly resorts do this (Evasion Mt Blanc domain?). I think the guides are called “red coats” or somesuch.

Megève, but I think they only stand around giving advice.

Just had this press release in from Crystal FYI:  Twelve British ski tour operators met yesterday (Thursday 28 February 2013) to discuss the way forward after the court in Albertville, France, ruled social skiing* illegal. A formal appeal has been lodged by the ski company Le Ski and the case will be heard by the court in Chambery in the near future. All ski operators present were fully supportive of Le Ski in their appeal as ski customers are currently unable to benefit from this popular service.

The tour operators present were: Alpine Elements, Crystal Ski, Inghams, Le Ski, Mark Warner, Neilson, Ski Esprit, Ski Olympic, Ski Total, Skiworld, Thomson, VIP Ski.

* social skiing is where a representative from the holiday company takes guests on familiarisation tours of the slopes, show them good lunch spots and how to avoid queues. They do not go off piste. No instruction is given.

No bravado, no playing to the gallery and no attempt to portray themselves as plucky entrepreneurs fighting the system then with regard to systematically underpaying staff then? they’ve got a cheek.

I have some sympathy with the TO’s in this case as many people enjoy the service provided and there has been no hard evidence put forward by anyone ,other than anecdotal, as to the safety of the service provided. I cannot understand what appears to be an undisguised antipathy towards the main TO’s who do introduce many clients to the mountains. Many small operators will do anything to avoid french employment contracts, tax and social charges as well. Those who pay them post a reply as should those who pay above the regulated minimum. The problem remains regardless of countless posts this is protectionism regrdless of the legal authority and there is nothing to fill the gap other than going elsewhere.

after that post from Macca1 I can see froth forming from ISE’s mouth all the way across the boarder here in Cham!

macca1 - 02 March 2013 06:32 PM

I have some sympathy with the TO’s in this case as many people enjoy the service provided and there has been no hard evidence put forward by anyone ,other than anecdotal, as to the safety of the service provided.

And this may be true, but its also pure luck.  Look at the ESF guy from val Thorens and the trouble he got in, was it manslaughter in the end(?), for taking people off piste ill-equipped.  Its when things go wrong that there is no coming back.  I could take a group into glaciated terrain tomorrow and chances are we’d come back alive, but if someone fell down a hole and died I’d be screwd as I’m not a IFMGA guide.

macca1 - 02 March 2013 06:32 PM

I cannot understand what appears to be an undisguised antipathy towards the main TO’s who do introduce many clients to the mountains.

And I started doing season’s with a TO.  But soon learnt to move on.  It helped me gain a love for the Alps and want to train to become an IML.  But I’d never go back and work for them.  Too much shit too deal with for not enough reward.  Poorly maintained properties, poor transfer organisation, low staff wages, etc, etc.  And of course a general lack of care for customers and leaving the little people in resort to pick up the pieces of crap-ness.

macca1 - 02 March 2013 06:32 PM

Many small operators will do anything to avoid french employment contracts, tax and social charges as well. Those who pay them post a reply as should those who pay above the regulated minimum.

Small Operators?  English run?  Why are they then avoiding French contracts? if they are true to the mountains then doing things properly shouldn’t be a problem.  IF they are just out to make money then of course they will do what they can to save money everywhere, just like a big TO.

macca1 - 02 March 2013 06:32 PM

The problem remains regardless of countless posts this is protectionism regrdless of the legal authority and there is nothing to fill the gap other than going elsewhere.

I do love this, they are stopping TO’s operating illegally and unqualified.  I’m English and hope to work in France, Italy, Switzerland when I qualify as an IML.  They can’t stop me just because I’m English, hell I even intend on registering with the French authority (SNAEM) and I know there are British people on here who are qualified Internationally and are Suisse of French registered.  They don’t get stopped for protectionism because they are legally qualified!

In Chamonix there are problably almost as many Swedish guides as there is French, they don’t get taken to court for working in France as they are qualified and legal.  Seems fair enough really hey?

I have just posted a new blog on the Ski Guiding judgement.

Ski guiding belongs in earlier age of British eccentricity, time to move on to new things?

http://grangedalice.blogspot.fr/

araird - 05 March 2013 02:21 PM

Ski guiding belongs in earlier age of British eccentricity

hehe

sight thread drift but as people are discussing “clubs” like the SCGB what about the legalities of UK based race clubs who train all over France and bring in their own coaches? Tignes, LDA, etc have been hosting club training for years and pre race training at Meribel, Les Houches etc happens all the time… My understanding is that if you are an internationally qualified coach (IVSI) , that you travel to and from resort with your club, you don’t work with beginners and only coach club members you are legal and crucially you can be renumerated.

Absolutely right - according to ISVI regulations. 

According to FRENCH regulations club activities that do not involve beginners are allowed, providing no payment is made.  Any race training activity has to be done by a ski instructor and local ski club trainers are all fully qualified.  In practice a blind eye is turned on foreign groups race training, but if push came to shove and they were controlled i.e. papers checked, they could be prosecuted.

Italia - 19 February 2013 10:45 AM

This debate goes on on many other forums too. I have no sympathy for Crystal in this case at all. Various governing bodies provide courses and qualifications for “Group Leaders” to take customers around the piste. The Snowsport Scotland “Alpine Ski Leader (ASL)”, being one such example, that provides a licence for School Teachers or other youth leaders to escort their charges on the Piste and is common to other European awards.  This involves a 7 day course plus First Aid and Safeguarding children modules. The European countries then agree either multi or bilaterally to recognise such qualifiactions and everything is hunky-dory.  This is both good practice and common sense. 

This of course involves an element of training (cost) and then paying those who are trained an appropriate wage (cost).  Thus ruling out the usual “Ski Guiding” seasonaire (cheap)student!  You can see why it is an unattractive option for tour companies.  We Mountain Professionals should support the French position, as ultimately it is our business these companies take away.  We must be reaching the point where at least one of the big tour operators can start marketing themselves as the company with “Qualified” ski guides.  After all an extra 25-50 Euros per person for ski guiding is not a great deal in a budget of a couple of thousand!

The French will always be protectionist by nature (Level IV ISTD required to ski teach) but the other European nations do recognise the other International levels, IML, etc so go there instead.

enough said - mercy