The CDF thing is sheer protectionism mainly aimed by the French - against the French but the Brits are caught in the middle.

Free market is the thing, without lowering safety standards though.  Good discussion this though we shall have to wait and see what happens all we can do hope that common sense prevails.

Saint

BASI reports in their AGM minutes of 5 June that a “fresh action” has been taken against Simon B and that a BASI legal representative will attend

doesnt appear this is finished yet....

Hello to all who contributed to this lengthy discussion and hopefully many of you may yet be subscribed to this thread to see my post here…

I am a recently qualified BASI Level 2 Instructor embarking upon a mid-life career change. I’m a Director level IT professional by previous career and decided 2 years ago that I’d prefer to be in the Winter Sports world running my own operation not disimilar to that which Simon Butler runs in Megeve. I have been in communication with Simon directly and I have to express nothing but admiration for the guy and the firm stance he has taken on what he considers a matter of equality of justice. I am tempted to follow in his footsteps but have little money to afford any court case that might be brought my way.

My interest in this discussion thread comes from a personal wish to be ‘playing the game fairly’ as I pursue my new dream. By that I mean to have equal respect for past traditions and local ways of doing things aswell as new EU community laws to help the greater EU federation flourish.

I fully appreciate that as a relative newbie instructor with the base entry qualification and similarly base experience there should be limitations to the instructing I can perform - a simple example being the restriction to teach only what BASI refer to as the Central theme (beginners up to and including parallel skiing). Obviously I want to pursue this change in life as promptly as possible but should I have to progress all the way to BASI 4 (ISTD with Eurotest) in order to do so?

My intention would be to establish my chalet in a resort where I could engage with a local ski school or suitably recognised individual to act in a supervisory capacity. In this regard should I be considered any different to a French entry level staggiere? Personally I would be planning to continue my progression up the BASI qualification ladder but wonder whether I would be able to pass the Eurotest (more on that later).

It is my understanding that the BASI 2 qualification (new BASI level 2 not old ISIA equiv.) can be considered as ‘not substantially different’ from the training a French entry level staggiere might have. In fact I wonder whether it doesn’t actually present a higher level of training and ability than an entry level staggiere. Should I have to pass their slalom based ‘Test Technique’ on top of my BASI 2 ticket to be considered valid to instruct in France? (As I say, more on these speed tests later).

The key aspect of the EU directives appears to be ability to show theoretical and practical equivalence of training. The exceptions permitted of host nations to enforce adaptation or aptitude tests seems to be focussed on ‘safety’. What I struggle with, in the context of skiing, is how a slalom or GS ‘speed test’ provides any significant merit to safety considerations of the clients. By far the more important aspects of client safety are related to control of the class, choosing appropriate terrain, being aware of changeable weather conditions and knowing how to most suitably teach individuals so that they are not pushed dangerously beyond comfort or ability zones. How does perfect race technique help anyone do that? In this regard I actually see that the derogations made to the EU directives of 2000/1 to be wholly floored and unjustifyable - but I am no lawyer so that is a lay opinion.

Further to the ‘speed test’ enigma… there is a clear acknowledgement of physiological variation between male and female sexes in the allowances of time made for each in both slalom and GS speed tests. Under modern disability and age discrimination laws I find it interesting to consider what might happen if an older instructor trying to pass a speed test insisted on allowances to be made for the natural deterioration of physiology with age. Or indeed a candidate with some form of mildly disabling condition which impairs race performance but has no effect on overall instructing ability from safety or any other perspective.

Whilst I understand that a first case court cannot be held to have provided a firm case law instance it does seem that in pushing his stance Simon has demonstrated on at least one occasion that the French cannot argue that BASI 2 qualifications are substantially different from those of a french staggiere. This should in theory overule any remaining derogation to insist on the slalom ‘Test Technique’ for instance. Under suitable supervision, therefore, my logic would suggest that such a BASI 2 instructor would be committing no breach of EU law by instructing in France.

My final queries apply to the need (or otherwise) to continue training beyond the BASI 2 level and finally to other member states such as Italy…

Beyond level 2 first… Although the French have a requirement to progress all the way to their top levels within 2 years (although they allow extensions in some circumstances) I wonder whether this is something they can enforce on member state instructors wishing to teach in France. Again my understanding is that they would have to prove substantially different training as compared to a national and particularly on the safety aspects. Whether a BASI level 2 progresses to ISTD within 2 years of starting in France seems to have no legal backing under EU directives… I wonder what that will do to the French system over time?!?

Lastly then Italy… specifically Aosta. The Italians appear to limit non-nationals from teaching more than 5 weeks even after having passed the AVMS. Before this they limit to one week. I would welcome some detailed input as to the Italian training structure but from my, perhaps rather ignorant, position it seems that the Aosta limitations and requirements are possibly even more in conflict with the EU directives.

I apologise in advance if I’ve been over-simplistic on any point and hope you will put me straight as required.

I look forward to seeing who is still following this topic.

Hi Thanks for posting your thoughts.

The thing you are trying to do is totally different to Simon.

You are trying to run before you can walk. 

Simon is a FULLY qualified BASI instructor as are other members of his staff.  Simon was able to show that his whole operation was similar to the French system.  Clearly someone who has not “full” qualifications cannot either be considered either qualified enough or experienced enough to work either as an independent instructor or as head of a teaching organization - BASI level 2 is simply not enough, neither is ISIA.  I am sorry but I just do not see the logic. 

Things may change to let you work under the supervision of fully qualified people - time will tell - but to think that the French or British qualifications are all about racing is to be very mistaken.  The things that worry the French most are to pass the final teaching and technical exams - indeed one friend of mine who has just passed his guides exams says he finds skiing exams are much harder.  Perhaps things do need to be changed (a bit) but ski schools need Instructors of all round ability.  There is plenty of opportunity in Spain, Austria, Switzerland,the USA, Canada and Eastern Europe if your need to teach is that great.

Your idea on timing in the French system is mistaken, since there is a large delay in the system, the original idea was 3 years but many are taking a lot longer.  Britain France Italy and Austria have virtually identical training requirement at ISTD level.

I really do wish you luck in your future career - I love teaching skiing myself and have done so now for over 33 years but I learned in my first ever season it would be a long hard road if I was ever to get near the top.

As regards Italy full Italian equivalence is granted at British ISTD level.  The other is a regional regulation.

Saint,
Thanks for the feedback (good to know the thread isn’t dead...)

I should clarify a few points then… I’m under no false illusions that I am very early days of my instructing career and have no wish to try to run before I can walk - I am a technology strategist by other career and so understand all to well about the merits of experience and longer term plans/goals.

When I say I’m thinking of ‘something not dissimilar to Simon’ I mean by way of a private chalet offering my guests inclusive tuition by myself up to and including parallel (ie. what I am qualified to teach). Unless I’m missing some key essentials here (and that’s entirely possible) I see little difference from me being given the same bunch of clients to instruct by a ski school in a country that does employ BASI 2 staff. My intention is not to setup the same sort of ‘academy’ style structure that Simon has.

My expectancy is that although I intend to progress the BASI ladder (through ISIA and hopefully ISTD) I have concerns that I may never pass the Euro Speedtest. Should this rule me out of being able to offer my considerable drive, passion and willingness to make a difference in the community I choose? I sincerely hope not because I personally have an awful lot to offer whichever resort I choose to settle in and I’m quite sure many like me would offer similar positive input and might struggle with similar aspects of the final qualification.

What I am really intrigued by in this thread is the status surrounding whether past national laws are now superceded and overruled by more recent EU laws. Most specifically whether the Test Technique is a legal obligation and whether instructors of my level should be permitted to work under any suitably qualified supervision rather than the monopoly that might exist in the respective country at present. Finally as to whether EU law makes any account of the disparity between French time limitations on final qualification as opposed to UK unlimited time constraints.

I do appreciate all feedback and I hope I’ve clarified where I’m coming from rather better than perhaps in the first post.

Interesting,

And certainly valid!

I understand your point about not wanting to teach above your “qualification” You do have one, by the way, and it is well respected. 

Even if you teach only up to parallel, who is to say you are behaving safely, and who takes responsibility for the whole of the teaching process?

Simon and his other fully qualified (and like him, recognised by the French) staff supervise the “trainees”. 

After all, French law provides for imprisonment for negligent sports coaching across all sports. 

Let me play the Devil’s advocate here… who is to say exactly what your terms of reference are… BASI have never written them down - not really.  Have you spent enough time under supervision to prove you have the all round skills to teach without supervision? (Here I mean in a practical situation with real people?) The French system is an apprenticeship with very organized on the job supervision. 

So if you were a free spirit - or bloody irresponsible from another point of view (sorry!); you will go ahead and teach what you want - whether or not you have the skills - or the training.  Not you necessarily - but it will happen, and it is the reputation of British instructors that will suffer (not to mention the safety of the clients). 

That’s the problem for the French.  It is inevitable that they will see some low level Instructor (to them at least), teaching, and assume they are unsafe. 

Who is to say that what you are doing is inappropriate or unsafe, unless it comes from outside?  All professions that are accountable to the public have a governing body; in our case it is BASI although legally, very loosely, - in the case of the French it is the Sports Ministry - all teaching qualifications are Government issued and regulated - you would be surprised how much in the case of trainees.

I have already suggested that levels 1 and 2 should be valid within Britain only - perhaps level 2 in a recognized ski school in Europe but only for a number of years (to encourage personal improvement).  Then ISIA (level 3) within a ski school (permanently), then ISTD fully independent. 

Regarding things like Test technique, you need this to work in a French ski school environment, - or you could work for Simon.  BUT if you work on your own, it seems to me that nothing you can show can prove that your training is remotely similar to the French or full British model; no matter how responsible you are - you simply have no fully qualified supervision or qualification.

The other matter is, will any fully qualified Brit be prepared to take the risk of another - perhaps better prepared court case; to take you on as a partner / employee?  The legal costs would be huge.

Your drive and passion - nor your skill are in question, but the practicalities are that - is it really worth it?  I would love to gather together a team of like minded ski teachers who could really do some good - but I cannot afford the potential court case.

European law recognizes the need for some disparity but the derogation, (legal term for authorised exception) for skiing has said that there must be minimum standards - because of the danger to clients.

Time limits may not be that important as each BASI qualification is stand alone.  However there is a certain minimum standard to work permanently in France - unless you work - at present - for Simon.  Even there it may be up for test if he employs people who do not progress through the system for too long. 

As I have said, things may change as to who can work for whom, but only time will tell.

I really do wish you well, since your emotional commitment to ski teaching is a credit to both you and BASI.

But be careful.

Hmmm where to start. I am in a similar position in that i have undertaken BASI training and have an apartment in France, mid life change of direction and thought wouldnt it be great to teach in France.

Couple things in my view. If i didnt have a real tie to France i would forget trying to get an operation going there. Why not Spain, Austria, NZ, Canada or Switzerland each have barriers to entry of their own but not as onerous.

Assuming France is a must for you and teaching is a primary motive as opposed to a chalet business with guiding you should focus on getting some teaching experience in the UK, Austria, Switzerland NZ, Oz etc and then get your ISIA qualification. It took me three years to get ISIA as a middle aged guy, can be done quicker if your not working full time…

You MUST pass the test technique to teach in france without ISTD. With an L2 and Test Technique you can legally get work at a Larger ski school with training centre status (CDF)I know of one guy doing this but he was ex national team and has passed his Eurotest as well. Reality is though that you need ISIA minimum before getting work in French, again you will need Test technique and can only work at a CDF. You then have 4 seasons to get your Eurotest and ISTD finished. Guys i know doing just that sometimes say they coudl be making more money in Switzerland with that level of experience and qualifications and question why they even bothered…

The Eurotest is very difficult for middle agers but is under threat in that ISIA has implemented a test of their own which is slightly easier and fairer than the ET. Other countries can use the ISIA technical test to obtian the new ISIA Card for their top certificate holders and the Stamp for next grade down. BASI is monitoring the ET’s and there is talk about possibly modifying the ET to harmonise with the ISIA test and should the ET be changed BASI MAY recommend an age handicap at the same time to avoid anti discrimination laws. THis is all rumour though and i wouldnt bet on any changes anytime soon. A race test in the USA is required for PSIA L3 and it is age handicapped so there is precident.