Hello - I live in Park City, Utah where we are currently at risk of losing much of our public land in the Wasatch Mountains to development.  The battle cry of the developers is that we have to “be world-class, just like Europe” so I figured this would be a good forum to ask some Euro questions in.

Some background…
The central Wasatch mountains where the seven major resorts are all located (Deer Valley, Park City, Canyons, Brighton, Solitude, Alta & Snowbird)is such a tiny range that all of it would fit inside of Zermatt, Chamonix or Whistler Blackcomb. We also have 2 million people living right at the base of the range, so it is heavily used.

Questions:

1) Does Europe allow uphill traffic (skinning) at or through the ski resorts?
Utah does not, so when a new lift is put in, it not only knocks out more terrain, but it also eliminates access.

2) No trespassing.  I’ve heard that although you can own private property in European mountains, you can not prohibit people from crossing over it (skiing, hiking, etc.).  ???

3) Cutting runs
From my European skiing experience, it seems like a majority of the skiing is above tree-line, so cutting runs through the trees is not as common as it is in the U.S., where it standard.  True?  False?

4) Endless, uncontested resort development in Europe. 
Proponents of U.S. resort development often say things like “If this was Europe, there would be trams and lifts connecting everything and no one has a problem with it.” Is that really the case?  I’ve heard recent rumblings about developing resorts in the Tirol.  Are Europeans totally on board with resort expansion?

5) Public transportation
From my European skiing experience, it seems like once your plane lands, you can get to/from any of the major resorts by public transportation and don’t need a car.  (By contrast, renting a car is almost mandatory in Utah, which creates all sorts of expense, traffic and parking problems.)

6) Helicopters
My understanding of heliskiing in places like Chamonix and Zermatt is that they can only take off, land and operate in a few designated spots.  True?

7) Snowmobiles
My understanding of snowmobiles in Europe is that they are heavily regulated and there is very little, if any, sport riding where you can take a snowmobile out and blast around in the mountains.

8) Annual skier visits at Chamonix?
I know it is a large area with many different mountains, but does anyone know how many skiers/riders Chamonix gets in a year?

9) Declining skier days
It is very difficult to get accurate numbers on the number of US skier days (because they are reported by the resorts, who like to play with their statistics), but places like Whistler Blackcomb clearly show a decline in skier visits over the last 5 years.  Any idea if skier days are down in European resorts?  If so, why?  Ticket prices?

10) Losing snow
One of the reasons US resorts in general, and Utah resorts in particular, are so hell-bent on expanding is that they claim they are trying to capture the world-wide market on skiing, which is supposedly shifting from Europe due to general warming conditions. 

11) Real Estate vs. Skiing
In Utah, skiing has become a marketing tool for real estate development and the resorts are more about filling beds than filling chairlifts.  Is this similar in Europe?

12) Company towns
Places like Vail, Whistler Blackcomb and now Park City are all becoming company towns where a major corporation owns all the land not only in the resorts, but the town as well, which means all of the shops, theaters, bars, etc.. have the resort as a landlord.  Is this common in Europe, or does the local bakery/bar own their building, land and business?

Thanks for any insights!

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

1) Does Europe allow uphill traffic (skinning) at or through the ski resorts?

Generally in France, the mayor will take a bye-law forbidding uphill access, or forbidding during certain hours. Some resorts then have piste patrollers who will enforce this more or less strictly. For example at the tiny resort of le Granier they won’t let you use the pistes at all. This makes accessing a popular ski touring route: les Barres de Tenconovaz, problematic. Les 7 Laux is the same, this can mean ski tourers have to choose more dangerous access routes than they would otherwise have done. Chamrousse tolerates limited use of pistes.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

2) No trespassing.  I’ve heard that although you can own private property in European mountains, you can not prohibit people from crossing over it (skiing, hiking, etc.).  ???

I’ve heard that if the ground is snow covered you can ski across it. Of course if they have a big dog you may choose otherwise.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

3) Cutting runs
From my European skiing experience, it seems like a majority of the skiing is above tree-line, so cutting runs through the trees is not as common as it is in the U.S., where it standard.  True?  False?

No a lot of skitouring and skiing is below the tree line. Think of all the Pre-Alps, you’ve got trailheads at 900-1000m and the treeline is 1800m. This is even more true in places like Bavaria. By tree cutting are you talking about resorts doing this or private initiatives.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

4) Endless, uncontested resort development in Europe. 
Proponents of U.S. resort development often say things like “If this was Europe, there would be trams and lifts connecting everything and no one has a problem with it.” Is that really the case?  I’ve heard recent rumblings about developing resorts in the Tirol.  Are Europeans totally on board with resort expansion?

Certainly not contested. In France alone we have a battle royal over a huge expension at Montgenevre to the summit of the Chaberton mountain which has no ski lifts at all. It only needs one good snow year for the mayors to be dusting down their megliomanic dreams. Val d’Isere wants to expand into the national park of the Vanoise to build lifts down to Bonneval. We lost a battle at Val Cenis which involved expanding into a valley that was previously unexploited. Les Contamines is proposing a link to Megeve <http://pistehors.com/news/forums/viewthread/1136>. Another battle stopping the Andorra/Porte Puymorens link up was won and so it goes on.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

5) Public transportation
From my European skiing experience, it seems like once your plane lands, you can get to/from any of the major resorts by public transportation and don’t need a car.  (By contrast, renting a car is almost mandatory in Utah, which creates all sorts of expense, traffic and parking problems.)

It is possible by bus in France and by train in Switzerland.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

6) Helicopters
My understanding of heliskiing in places like Chamonix and Zermatt is that they can only take off, land and operate in a few designated spots.  True?

Switzerland and North Italy are heliski heavans even if there is some control. A day’s touring in Chamonix is spoilt by the constance clatter of helicopters. In theory heliskiing is banned in France but the Italians don’t hesitate to land on the border, ditto for the Andorrans in the Pyrenees. You really need to get away from Chamonix if you want some peace.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

7) Snowmobiles
My understanding of snowmobiles in Europe is that they are heavily regulated and there is very little, if any, sport riding where you can take a snowmobile out and blast around in the mountains.

That’s the case in France. Snowmobiles are limited to defined circuits in ski resorts. More or less.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

8) Annual skier visits at Chamonix?
I know it is a large area with many different mountains, but does anyone know how many skiers/riders Chamonix gets in a year?

No idea.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

9) Declining skier days
It is very difficult to get accurate numbers on the number of US skier days (because they are reported by the resorts, who like to play with their statistics), but places like Whistler Blackcomb clearly show a decline in skier visits over the last 5 years.  Any idea if skier days are down in European resorts?  If so, why?  Ticket prices?

Ticket prices up ahead of inflation and skier days generally on a slight upward trend in France.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

10) Losing snow
One of the reasons US resorts in general, and Utah resorts in particular, are so hell-bent on expanding is that they claim they are trying to capture the world-wide market on skiing, which is supposedly shifting from Europe due to general warming conditions. 

Snow is not what it was in the 70s in Europe. Even in a good year like this one.

11) Real Estate vs. Skiing
In Utah, skiing has become a marketing tool for real estate development and the resorts are more about filling beds than filling chairlifts.  Is this similar in Europe?

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

12) Company towns
Places like Vail, Whistler Blackcomb and now Park City are all becoming company towns where a major corporation owns all the land not only in the resorts, but the town as well, which means all of the shops, theaters, bars, etc.. have the resort as a landlord.  Is this common in Europe, or does the local bakery/bar own their building, land and business?

Uncommon in Europe I would say.

Hello, I cannot answer all of your questions due to my limited experience (I’ve been living in Switzerland for 2 years), but here is what I know:

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

1) Does Europe allow uphill traffic (skinning) at or through the ski resorts?
Utah does not, so when a new lift is put in, it not only knocks out more terrain, but it also eliminates access.

I haven’t done a lot of resort skiing or ski touring in resort areas, but I have observed in some resorts (Leysin, Les Diablerets) that ski patrollers don’t care about people skinning up out of marked ski runs. I have skinned up some ski runs without any problems, but it was during early hours when ski lifts were closed.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

2) No trespassing.  I’ve heard that although you can own private property in European mountains, you can not prohibit people from crossing over it (skiing, hiking, etc.).  ???

It depends on a country. Here in Switzerland, freedom to roam is guaranteed by the Swiss Civil Code. Basically you have a right to access almost any area even if it is in a private property, I was surprised to see some summer hiking trails passing almost through someone backyard.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

4) Endless, uncontested resort development in Europe. 
Proponents of U.S. resort development often say things like “If this was Europe, there would be trams and lifts connecting everything and no one has a problem with it.” Is that really the case?  I’ve heard recent rumblings about developing resorts in the Tirol.  Are Europeans totally on board with resort expansion?

Resort development is far from uncontested. Organizations like Mountain Wilderness are constantly fighting with excessive development in the mountains, here you may find more information on this subject.

And “If this was Europe ...” is a really bad argument because the US has something which (Central) Europe doesn’t have - natural wilderness areas which should be preserved from any development. Unfortunately there is no true wilderness in the Alps as it was lost because of development for many centuries.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

5) Public transportation
From my European skiing experience, it seems like once your plane lands, you can get to/from any of the major resorts by public transportation and don’t need a car.  (By contrast, renting a car is almost mandatory in Utah, which creates all sorts of expense, traffic and parking problems.)

In Switzerland public transport system is almost perfect. You can access any ski resort, and almost any valley by public transport. If you have an annual pass that allows free travel, then it’s even cheaper than going by car. During the weekends it can be much faster than a car, because you don’t have to wait in long traffic jams. I guess I don’t need to tell you that it also has less impact on the environment.

However, public transport system in France isn’t that great as in Switzerland. Some French ski resorts can be accessed only by a car.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

6) Helicopters
My understanding of heliskiing in places like Chamonix and Zermatt is that they can only take off, land and operate in a few designated spots.  True?

7) Snowmobiles
My understanding of snowmobiles in Europe is that they are heavily regulated and there is very little, if any, sport riding where you can take a snowmobile out and blast around in the mountains.

Cannot comment, but may be you will find some information on the following page.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

5) Public transportation
From my European skiing experience, it seems like once your plane lands, you can get to/from any of the major resorts by public transportation and don’t need a car.  (By contrast, renting a car is almost mandatory in Utah, which creates all sorts of expense, traffic and parking problems.)

I’ve spent hundreds of days skiing backcountry and lift-served in both Utah (except no backcountry tours accessed from Park City) and the Europe Alps (mainly France Alpes du Nord, various Switzerland, Tirol Austria). The two big differences I see are:

(a) France + other Alp countries tend to plow roads to many many more backcountry ski trailheads than in Utah (if you include the areas outside the Tri-Canyon Wasatch). If Europe had Utah’s policies for plowing, backcountry ski touring by local residents on anything like its current scale would be impossible.

(b) Utah Tri-canyon has more sectors with wider-spaced trees. Many below-tree-line sectors in the Alps have tightly-spaced trees—so lift-served ski trails or forest roads have to be cut and maintained with power saws and bulldozers—so many good ski tours and lift-served areas include substantial sections below tree-line.

(Actually Utah has lots of above-tree-line terrain, in ranges outside the Tri-Canyon. You just can’t access it in winter—without a snowmobile).

______________________________________________
Public transpo: I don’t see a big difference between Utah and France Alpes du Nord in this regard - for local residents.

If anything, Salt Lake City has better and more useful public transportation access to both lift-served skiing and (Tri-Canyon) backcountry touring. There is no need to rent a car for lift-served skiing in Utah—the major resorts all have buses and shuttle vans from the airport. For those staying down in the SLC valley, the UTA bus system is better than most skiing-access bus systems in Europe—in hours and frequency of service.

Backcountry - There are very few places in Europe where you can use the bus to access a single-day backcountry ski tour, because the bus does not arrive at most backcountry trailheads until late in the morning, or afternoon, or not at all on most days.
All this talk by visiting Americans about the amazing Euro public transpo system is for multi-day tours - (and even those typically only at selected access points)—since for starting a multi-day tour, you don’t much care about the exact hour of the day you arrive.

If you look on the trip report websites for local backcountry skiers in France Alpes du Nord (e.g. skitour.fr + camptocamp.org) you’ll find that 99.9% of the reports are by people who drove a car to the trailhead (or possibly a bicycle). Show up at a trailhead with nice tours on a sunny weekend day and the parking will be jammed (by American standards beyond jammmed ... with cars parked in tight configurations Americans would only expect in New York City).

OK ... around Chamonix there’s a wide range of backcountry tours you can access by public transportation and lifts. But that’s mostly a tourist place. And a fairly small percentage of the good backcountry ski touring in the Alpes du Nord.

One more peeve about Utah: Even when a road to a backcountry trailhead is partly snow-free, often the road surface is so rough or steep that it requires High-Clearance or 4WD to drive up it. So I would have to rent an SUV—in ski season usually like twice as expensive as the uaual compact car I rent to drive up the canyons when I stay in the Salt Lake valley.

In France the roads into trailheads might be narrow by American standards, but tend to be well-graded and well-designed and well-maintained for 2WD access by lots of urban visitors.

France has the best American-style “drive your car to the trailhead and start skinning up” backcountry skiing in the world.

Ken

KenR - 20 March 2012 11:25 PM

Backcountry - There are very few places in Europe where you can use the bus to access a single-day backcountry ski tour, because the bus does not arrive at most backcountry trailheads until late in the morning

In Switzerland the bus/train usually arrives between 7am and 9am, so it’s not a problem during the middle of a winter. So far, I managed to do all my single-day tours by using public transport and it worked great. But, I agree that 7am-9am is too late for spring skiing and for that you need a car/bicycle.

So where do you live in Switzerland that allows you to arrive by bus at lots of backcountry ski trailheads by 7:00?

KenR - 20 March 2012 11:39 PM

So where do you live in Switzerland that allows you to arrive by bus at lots of backcountry ski trailheads by 7:00?

First, I didn’t say I can access lots of trailheads by 7am. If you read my post above, it says I usually can access trailheads from 7am to 9am. There are exceptions that fall out of this range (in both sides), but they are very few because trains and buses usually operate quite regularly and those that don’t they tend operate during morning and evening hours (and not the middle of a day). I live in Lausanne, which is not located in the Alps, and can access most of the trailheads in Vaud, Bernese Alps, and Lower Valais from 7am to 9am by public transport.

Actually, the map of the public transport access points on camptocamp clearly shows that most valleys have public transport access (and in Switzerland it is quite regular).

Thanks for your helpful response. Yes you were careful in the wording of your previous post. And I think your hint that France and Switzerland might have different tendencies in public transpo to backcountry ski trailheads makes sense.

Most of my single-day touring has been in France and Tirol/Bayern, not Switzerland. And the one time I wanted to use the postbus system to set up a (mid-week) ski tour, it didn’t seem like the scheduled hours were convenient for my destination on that day, so sounds like I over-generalized on Switzerland.

Ken

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

1) Does Europe allow uphill traffic (skinning) at or through the ski resorts?

Not in general. “Europe” is a big place, with different provinces and countries, and sometimes each different municipality - having its own rules, and its own patterns of enforcement.

My general impression is that many lift-served ski resorts (which in France are often municipalities) feel that they have a right to make their own rules for what is permitted or not on the groomed + marked runs (pistes). I recall a resort on public land in Switzerland which posted a detailed sign in both English + German stating that the terms of their concession for which they had paid some specific number of Swiss francs (posted on the sign) gave them the right to people from hiking up their pistes—or even _crossing_ a piste.

Generally there is a reluctance (in France at least) to make rules off-piste travel. But since many good ski tours begin below tree line, and trees are often dense, starting the tour on some sort of groomed cut trail (often not wide) is the only reasonable way to gain access to the open terrain higher up. If the municipality wants to use that access trail as a marked groomed trail for its lift-served downhill skiers, there’s a conflict. In one province I know (not in France) one local partner told me this conflict with the principal of “access to the mountains” has not yet been tested in court.

Note there are two reasons for skiers to want to go uphill in resorts: (1) To gain access for backcountry; (2) to just get some aerobic exercise. In some cases there are many many skiers who desire reason 2, so the downhill operators naturally want some control over the possibility of hordes of uphill traffic on particular trails at crowded times. And of course at times when they’re doing avalanche control. Some resorts have chosen to address (2) by opening one trail one _night_ per week for uphill skiing (with modern headlamps)—and with a restaurant open at the top selling food + drinks.

Often the patrol chooses not to _enforce_ rules against uphill travel at uncrowded times on uncrowded trails. (I have sometimes observed this in Utah.) So savvy backcountry skiers show up early in the morning before the downhill traffic, and perhaps while the ski patrol is busy with other things.

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

Utah does not, so when a new lift is put in, it not only knocks out more terrain, but it also eliminates access.

Many resorts in France which access good backcountry terrain do sell single-ride tickets specifically targeted for backcountry skiers. So the existence of the downhill resort + groomed trails does not prevent access—just makes you pay.

(Many years ago in Utah I recall purchasing a single-ride ticket to access a backcountry tour.)

Ken

davidof - 20 March 2012 06:25 PM

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

2) No trespassing.  I’ve heard that although you can own private property in European mountains, you can not prohibit people from crossing over it (skiing, hiking, etc.).  ???

I’ve heard that if the ground is snow covered you can ski across it. Of course if they have a big dog you may choose otherwise.

vbg - 20 March 2012 10:51 PM

It depends on a country. Here in Switzerland, freedom to roam is guaranteed by the Swiss Civil Code. Basically you have a right to access almost any area even if it is in a private property, I was surprised to see some summer hiking trails passing almost through someone backyard.

I’m not sure that’s quite it, my garden remains my garden and I can refuse anyone a right of passage through it. Outside of recognised habitation areas of communes you’ve a general right of access but it doesn’t supersede other rights or restrictions, i.e. I can’t ski through the military range the other side of hill here if they’re using it, I can’t walk through a quarry if they’re blasting it, I can’t ride my bike through the forest if they’re felling trees or wander through a field of young animals unless I’ve a reasonable justification for doing so like it’s a path and so on.

davidof - 20 March 2012 06:25 PM

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

9) Declining skier days
It is very difficult to get accurate numbers on the number of US skier days (because they are reported by the resorts, who like to play with their statistics), but places like Whistler Blackcomb clearly show a decline in skier visits over the last 5 years.  Any idea if skier days are down in European resorts?  If so, why?  Ticket prices?

Ticket prices up ahead of inflation and skier days generally on a slight upward trend in France.

I’m fairly sure skier days are going up, and that uphill capacity is also increasing via upgraded lifts. I think downhill capacity might be going down in Switzerland though, over the last 10-20 years a number of small stations have closed. By next season we’ll have lost Mont Chevruils, Pic Chausy and Isenau in the space of 10 or 20km alone. In fact, we could do with some scallies to come and remove the old metalwork.

davidof - 20 March 2012 06:25 PM

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

7) Snowmobiles
My understanding of snowmobiles in Europe is that they are heavily regulated and there is very little, if any, sport riding where you can take a snowmobile out and blast around in the mountains.

That’s the case in France. Snowmobiles are limited to defined circuits in ski resorts. More or less.

Similar in Switzerland, you apply for a permit to access your farm/business etc.

davidof - 20 March 2012 06:25 PM

Andrew McLean - 20 March 2012 05:31 PM

6) Helicopters
My understanding of heliskiing in places like Chamonix and Zermatt is that they can only take off, land and operate in a few designated spots.  True?

Switzerland and North Italy are heliski heavans even if there is some control. A day’s touring in Chamonix is spoilt by the constance clatter of helicopters. In theory heliskiing is banned in France but the Italians don’t hesitate to land on the border, ditto for the Andorrans in the Pyrenees. You really need to get away from Chamonix if you want some peace.

Well it’s subject to some hefty restrictions, we know the small numbers of places they’re allowed to land in Switzerland. It’s Europe, there’s not really many peaks you can ski where if you took a night in a hut you couldn’t climb. If you look to Alaska or the Caucasus that may not be the case. In Switzerland helicopter skiing is almost entirely the preserve of the wealthy who can’t be bothered to walk up, a wealthy but unsympathetic lobby. I can’t see it lasting much more than 5 or 10 years at most.

Just a head up for Chamrousse which has a 7.50 Euro ski tourer ticket

http://www.chamrousse.com/skipass-prices.html

which includes the Roberts chair avoiding climbing a busy piste (you can avoid the piste with a small detour). This gives access to the Vans, Sorbier, Eulier and futher afield, you could even tour to the Croix de la Belledonne if you wanted and the return trip on the chair would be very welcome