Amazing ski traverse on truly light gear: track cross-country skating skis.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/859199/Evolution-Skate-Ski-Alpinism-TR

Great achievement in the Sierra Nevada mountains of California—Excellent report + photos by Peter Mayfield. [ see more discussion ]

I’ve chosen to do that spectacular high-mountain (to above 3600m) tour twice, but I took multiple days each time.

Dynafit-compatible is one point on a spectrum of compromise.

There are at least two levels of “Light” beyond Dynafit-compatible: NNN/BC and track skating (e.g. SNS or NNN or Pilot bindings).

Ken

some confused kit there for my money personally.

I can’t quite see the point of using skate skis with skate boots and then carrying some hiking books, I wonder if the saving made by using the light gear might be cancelled out by having two pairs of boots.

I have some SNS BC bindings which makes the boot perfectly OK to walk in for a long way. As to how light it really is, that’s a bit difficult to say, the SNS BC binding is about 500g which is well within sight of a basic dynafit and my Madshus Eon’s (aka Kahru XCD Guides) are about 2000g. That puts it on a par with a light ski mountaineering ski and dynafit. The boots, I use XADV 8’s, are lighter though at 1000g and I don’t carry another pair. I do carry skins though for long ascents. Basically, I don’t think what he carried was any lighter than what I use in the Jura. Gear this light, and boots this floppy, are hard to control on descents though.

Looks like a brilliant trip he’s made though!

That is the best possible gear for heli-skinning (skinning up, taking a heli back to the valley) as the way down with those skis cannot be too enjoyable.

I met a guy at the summit of the Dent des Crolles a few years ago on those Salomon X-Adventure skis. They were like a short, fat edged nordic ski and had SNS type bindings with a rugged skating type boot. He didn’t ski down the face of the Dent like me but took the route down to Perquelin which still has some steeper sections. He seemed to ski the 25 degree powder slope ok but I wondered about anything else.

This video gives an idea of the gear

http://www.wideo.fr/video/iLyROoafIiE3.html

It is an interesting concept. I did the cime de gelas on some 130cm, fat skis last May but had randonnee boots, I can see something like a traverse of the Jura or Chartreuse being perfect for such skis but with an SNS binding… but we are really back to Nordic Touring which I think Ken’s friends at the Eagle Ski Club are quite into.

ise - 14 February 2011 09:17 AM

I can’t quite see the point of using skate skis with skate boots and then carrying some hiking books, I wonder if the saving made by using the light gear might be cancelled out by having two pairs of boots.

The usual point is that weight on your feet counts more (in reduction of speed + endurance) than weight on your back. Since one pair of was always on his back, he had less weight on his feet.

I think key for Pater Mayfield is that he had been skiing (and racing on the groomed tracks in the Tahoe area) all winter on light skate boots. So if he suddenly for one tour added extra weight to his feet, his leg muscles would not have been trained for it.

. (I on the other hand ski all season long with more weight on my feet, even though it’s often overkill for a particular tour, so on those days when I really want to be in my 4-buckle boots and metal-topsheet skis, it doesn’t slow me down much, because my leg muscles are trained for it.)

ise - 14 February 2011 09:17 AM

SNS BC bindings

I agree those were heavier—and so were the compatible boots. That’s why I never went for them. And that’s not what Peter Mayfield was using that day.

My view is that if you want to go light, use SNS track bindings. I don’t know if Peter was using Pilot track bindings instead, just a little more weight—but more important the 2nd pin of the bottom of the Pilot boot traps refrozen snow, not what I want to deal with after booting over a 3000 meter pass in the Sierra backcountry.

I don’t think what he carried was any lighter than what I use in the Jura.

Other than carrying light hikers (brought only because of lack of snow at lower altitude for start + finish) and an ice axe (which perhaps he didn’t actually use)—carried on his back—everything Peter used was lighter than the gear you mentioned:
* track skate boots lighter
* track skate binding lighter
* skate skis lighter
* no climbing skins

Looks like a brilliant trip he’s made though!

Also great (and more reliably do-able) on heavier gear with multiple days to enjoy climbs + descents of the many peaks along the way—which has the disadvantage of needing to carry tent, sleeping bag, stove, food, etc.
Given the way the snowpack in the Alps is going, I might be there again in early May.

Ken

[ duplicate post deleted ]

pierre - 14 February 2011 11:10 AM

the way down with those skis cannot be too enjoyable.

Actually on nice corn snow, descending on skate skis can be rather fun. Though it’s surely true that if the snow is at all difficult or deeper, than it’s not enjoyable.

I have to say that in lots of snow conditions my light-ish Dynafit-compatible setup (2-buckle Scarpa F1 boots on Atomic Tourcap Guide skis) is not so enjoyable either—Why nowadays I normally tour on 4-buckle Garmont Megaride boots and just bought K2 Backlash skis with the extra weight of a metal topsheet.
- - > spectrum of compromise

But enjoyment of the descents was not the point for Peter’s tour on that day. And for many ski traverses (outside of the Alpes du Nord + Pyrenees) the steep downhill sections are a very small percentage of the tour.
The big difference on light gear is speed and enjoyment on the long gentle sections found on many ski traverses. When you’re a strong skater on truly light gear, it can be fun to cover those long stretches, which are just a boring slog on most ski mountaineering gear.

The problem is that it has to be just the right day and just the right tour to make it worth bringing light skating gear into high mountain backcountry.
On the other hand there are so many days when it’s so much fun using them on the groomed tracks of the best ski de fond centers in Savoie—so my light skating skis + boots come along with me on every ski holiday between January and mid-April.

Ken

KenR - 14 February 2011 01:22 PM

Other than carrying light hikers (brought only because of lack of snow at lower altitude for start + finish) and an ice axe (which perhaps he didn’t actually use)—carried on his back—everything Peter used was lighter than the gear you mentioned:
* track skate boots lighter
* track skate binding lighter
* skate skis lighter
* no climbing skins

I don’t have the exact gear he does but I’m not so sure about this, at least I can’t see a big difference.

My skate boots (Fischer Carbonlite RCS Skating) weigh 1320g/pair, my XADV’s are 2000g/pair, Eons (with bindings) 2800g, some Rossignol Xium NIS2 skates 1440g and the lightest hiking boot I have is 1640g/pair.

So, if I did the same :

skate skis, skate boots, hiking boots = 4400g
eons, xadvs = 4800g

Skins are a bit moot, I find’s it’s quicker and easier on ascent but my EON’s are a crown ski so it’s not absolutely vital. Really I’m just zooming in on those hiking boots although there’s probably something lighter than mine. So for my gear I’d rather have that extra 400g on my feet for the descent.

KenR - 14 February 2011 01:37 PM

But that’s really not the point, since for many ski traverses (outside of the Alpes du Nord + Pyrenees) the steep downhill sections are a very small percentage of the tour.

The big difference is speed and enjoyment on the long gentle sections found on many ski traverses. When you’re a strong skater on truly light gear, it can be fun to cover those long stretches, which are just a boring slog on most ski mountaineering gear.

You’re right, I think that’s exactly the point. When I looked at the journeys I wanted to make in the Jura I concluded that AT gear was way OTT. I did a few trips with light nordic touring gear, ie skis without steel edges, and went down the route of the Eon’s.

Like you say, this isn’t big in the alps at all, I’m sure all those Kahrus always sold more in the US and Scandanavia for that reason.

ise - 14 February 2011 01:50 PM

My skate boots (Fischer Carbonlite RCS Skating) weigh 1320g/pair, my XADV’s are 2000g/pair, Eons (with bindings) 2800g, some Rossignol Xium NIS2 skates 1440g and the lightest hiking boot I have is 1640g/pair.
So, if I did the same :
skate skis, skate boots, hiking boots = 4400g

I just put my skating skis+boots+bindings on the scale = 2500g / pair
My light hiking shoes = 1800g / pair

Total = 4300g
(or if I used your hikers instead of mine: 4140g)

So one perspective is:
You’re right, there isn’t much difference. Your X-Adventure is as light as any reasonable person needs to go for gear for a traverse in the Jura or Sierras.

Another perpective is:
That’s a difference of at least 200 grams per leg. With the right marketing we could get some of those racers to pay an extra 400 Euros for that.

Ken

Ise,

The trouble with your XA8 + Guide outfit is that the ski is much too wide for the boot and you have poor edge control.  Try the same boot with a narrower ski like the Madshus Glittertind (55mm waist) and you can control the ski well. Gaining edge control is much more important than losing width. With that combination it’s possible to skate usefully when conditions permit, and, with a good telemark, ski the most difficult Alpine snow conditions.  The Glittertind has a mostly uniform flex pattern and can easily be bent into reverse camber which will cut a turn through even resistant snow.  Telemark, not parallel is the rule except on hard snow.  Get the skis a little short (for me, 190 for 82kg), and you can initiate turns in even breakable crust, by just pivoting the front ski right into the fall line.  Skiing out of the fall line is relatively easy. Try it.  It works. 

Steve Barnett

Unexpected . . . a key reason I myself tried doing that (multi-day) traverse in the Sierras which Peter Mayfield performed so remarkably was because of reading a book by Steve Barnett.

One of the ideas offered in the book was to traverse the entire crest of the southern Sierras (which struck me as much too long to fit with my career)—but pointed out that some people broke it into smaller chunks, and so spread the adventure over several years.

So that became the guiding goal of my spring skiing for lots of years, to fly to Reno and drive south and hope for a window of weather to try another section of the big Sierra crest traverse. One of the first sections we tried was this one thru the Evolution Basin from Echo Col to Lamarck Col, which Sharon and I did, hauling our tent for five days (in the opposite direction of Peter’s).

So this idea from Steve Barnett turned out to be a wonderful adventure.
And further led to the idea of trying some of the (shorter) Sierra crest sections as single-day tours—which worked for me. Which led me to try assembling + using different combinations of lighter gear, and to lucky meetings / phone conversations with Peter Mayfield and other USA fast-and-light leaders. And I’m ready for more in the Sierras ...

but then I fell into backcountry skiing in France.

Ken

sb - 15 February 2011 12:28 AM

Ise,

The trouble with your XA8 + Guide outfit is that the ski is much too wide for the boot and you have poor edge control. 

Obviously the choice people make for gear are fairly personal and reflect the journeys they want to make. I understand what you’re saying but don’t forget the XADV8 boot is made for exactly that kind of ski, that was Salomons intention when they produced it along with the XADV 89 ski which is broadly similar to the Eon.

I already have some other gear, light nordic touring gear, more alpine telemarks with garmont boots and some asnes telemarks on three-pin with crispis. I ski the Eon shorter and the combination of length and surface area give me some float in the deep powder we get in the Jura (sometimes) while still being fairly agile in forests, the other gear I have fails on one or both of those criteria.

If I’m making going to be doing a large descent personally I just take some light skis with dynafits

Ken, It sounds like a wonderful idea to do the Sierra as you’ve done - gradually doing pieces of the crest in the spring.  I hope to make such a trip this year - possibly out of Bridgeport, or maybe south of Whitney.

Steve Barnett