First crevasse death of the season in the Valley Blanche yesterday I think. French skier fell 20 meters into a crevasse. I would have thought the crevasses would have been well bridged by now with all the snow above 2000 meters. Worth watching this film again

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0979-new-glacier-safety-film-on-screen-in-chamonix/

all the glacier gear in the world isn’t going to help you if you are killed by the fall.

take care out there!

I would have thought the crevasses would have been well bridged by now with all the snow above 2000 meters.

It’s only January. Based on reports in previous years here on pistehors.com, it’s not unusual for people to die in crevasse falls in February. And there are weather + snow conditions where you could break thru into a hidden crevasse on some glaciers in March or April.

Lots of those crevasses around Mont Blanc are really big. Ever look at an aerial photo of the Envers in September?

all the glacier gear in the world isn’t going to help you if you are killed by the fall.

Very good point. One not made in that video when it points out all the serious gear the party is carrying.

Avalanche risk comparison:
For skiing in avalanche terrain, lots of experienced people would say you should:
* read at least one serious book about it (e.g. Bruce Tremper)
* take at least one multi-day on-snow course of instruction.
* go on several tours first with other experienced skiers.
* consider snow + weather events for recent several days (as well as the season history so far)
* consult a current avalanche hazard forecast for the specific area—assess whether today is especially risky.

Crevasse risk is of similar complexity and seriousness, but what comparable steps do skiers take for managing it?
* watch a 6-minute video
* head out off-piste on whatever sunny day fits their schedule, without thought of whether today is especially risky for hidden crevasses.
* follow some tips they remember from the video, feel confident.

Ken

KenR from USA - 25 January 2010 01:17 PM

I would have thought the crevasses would have been well bridged by now with all the snow above 2000 meters.

all the glacier gear in the world isn’t going to help you if you are killed by the fall.

Very good point. One not made in that video when it points out all the serious gear the party is carrying.

Avalanche risk comparison:
For skiing in avalanche terrain, lots of experienced people would say you should:
* read at least one serious book about it (e.g. Bruce Tremper)
* take at least on multi-day on-snow instruction course about it.
* go on several tours first with other experienced skiers.
* consider snow + weather events for recent several days (as well as the season history so far)
* consult a current avalanche hazard forecast for the specific area—assess whether today is especially risky.

Crevasse risk is of similar complexity and seriousness, but what comparable steps do skiers take for managing it?
* watch a 6-minute video
* head out off-piste on whatever sunny day fits their schedule, without thought of whether today is especially risky for hidden crevasses.
* follow some tips they remember from the video, feel confident.

Ken

The avalanche forecast in Haute Savoie yesterday specifically mentioned that some crevasses are not well filled.

Ken.  Can I just point out that:

1. the vast majority of the video is about crevasse avoidance We took a conscious decision NOT to start by making a film about how to do crevasse rescue, though making one would have been much less challenging.
2. People die in crevasses, but it’s kind of difficult to interview dead witnesses. We have a live witness talking about her crevasse fall to emphasise how serious it is.  Incidentally, for your info, the witness was fully equipped and trained as were her party and they dropped her a rope and she prusiked out.
3. The vid was made to be shown on the screens at the Midi and the Montets. People there queue for between 10 and 45 minutes as a rule. We are not going to hold their attention for that long on what is essentially an awareness raising exercise
4. Your point about comparison between crevasses and avalanches is valid, but then you compare what most experienced people say you should do for avalanches with what most skiers across the board do for crevasses, so the validity of the comparison ends there. I agree that Tremper’s book is great. I have just spent the last 2 days instructing on an avalanche course. However, the vast majority of recreational skiers in the Chamonix valley take a similar attitude to avalanches as they do to crevasses, i.e. carry a transceiver (maybe) and cross their fingers before ducking the ropes.  Our video says carry the right gear and know how to use it, ride with plenty of margin and treat glacial terrain with respect. If folk went on a course to do that, then the avoidance strategies we’d all like to see would automatically get covered.
5. When someone has a problem with something, the first step is to raise awareness, then to start to give them the solution. The video is a start, and something that hasn’t been done previously as far as I’m aware. To progress beyond the start is something that is probably beyond the scope of a video, and more into the realms of practical training, but if you can get something on screen, then I’d be delighted to see it. In the meantime, our narrator Miles Bright has written a book about skiing and boarding on glaciers which is published and on sale now.

Andy, the video is excellent for its purpose and it gets people at the right time when they are bored in a lift queue, waiting for a lift which is taking them into glaciated terrain. I have seen no previous similar videos about crevasses and glacial hazards.

We place a lot of emphasis on avalanche rescue and this emphasis is finally starting to trickle through to the masses with frequent coverage on ‘the basics’ hitting mainstream press (ski mags almost monthly, travel supplements and even national newspapers after tragedy usually). It’s good that awareness is finally improving.

Avalanche awareness is of course only a small part of all mountain awareness which needs to be adapted to the terrain you travel within. Glacial terrain is a whole new ballpark, with different techniques and knowledge… I’m really pleased that the video makes that point and makes people reflect that their ‘avalanche awareness’ and normal mountain knowledge may not be enough if they are heading onto a glacier.

Perhaps once we’ve all mastered glacier safety I can persuade everyone we need to cover wilderness medicine / life support. After all, what’s the point of digging for 15 mins to find an arrested patient and not having the ability to resuscitate them?

Andy -

Thanks a lot for making the video. It’s way more education about crevasses than most skiers had before. I think there’s a real shortage of skier-specific strategies for crevasse risk (see this post)—so I’m glad to see lots of different media and approaches for addressing it.

Andy Perkins - 25 January 2010 02:18 PM

We have a live witness talking about her crevasse fall to emphasise how serious it is.

Yes, I liked that.

the witness was fully equipped and trained as were her party and they dropped her a rope and she prusiked out.

Glad it worked out so well. Some other people who have fallen into crevasses in recent years have died instantly. I personally know someone else who punched thru into a crevasse skiing on the Glacier d’Argentiere (following his fully-certified mountain guide), who was hauled out by helicopter and immediately flown back to the valley to have his injuries treated.

The vid was made to be shown on the screens at the Midi and the Montets.

Great idea.
But now it’s been turned loose in a completely different context and audience: the World Wild Web.

Ken

Details of this fatality as follows:

It took place at the start of the Salle a Manger at about 2450m on the left bank of the glacier just under the Requin hut. Approximate reference 0339300 5083100 according to an eye witness who I just spoke to, but this is only to the nearest 100m . The hole was just meters from the well skied track on a flat piece of untracked snow approximately 10 meters square.

Although http://www.andypmountainguide.com/index.php/eng/Photos/Vallee-Blanche/VB7 (taken from the Requin hut) doesn’t show the exact spot, it gives an indication of the kind of terrain in that area.

Hi Ken,

So following your logic then really nothing should be posted to the internet that might encourage any sort of risky activity???

OK, lets shut down 99% of the www then, as a quick trawl through a random selection of websites will doubtless reveal many things which could be construed to incite people into risky activities of many sorts…

Including pistehors, which might inspire people to go ski touring or off piste, which as we know is a dangerous game…

Shut them all down I say...!

offpisteskiing - 25 January 2010 07:47 PM

… nothing should be posted to the internet that might encourage any sort of risky activity???

My point was not about “risky activity”—rather that a video (or other communication) created for one context and then exposed in a second context with different expectations is more likely to lead to misunderstandings. Of course any communication can have misunderstandings, even in its original context—a problem of trying to communicate at all, not just communication about “risky activities”.

offpisteskiing - 25 January 2010 07:47 PM

… a random selection of websites will doubtless reveal many things which could be construed to incite people into risky activities of many sorts ...

Not only in a “random selection”, but especially on my own websites, like
this + this + this + this

Ken

offpisteskiing - 25 January 2010 07:48 PM

Including pistehors, which might inspire people to go ski touring or off piste, which as we know is a dangerous game…

Shut them all down I say...!

Your kidding! . Most people who read PisteHors are too scared to even leave their living room !!! It is a liturgyy of death and destruction.

But you do have a serious point. There is a lot of nonsense on websites, especially forums where it is more of a free for all. I guess before people would have toured or skied off piste with a club or maybe a guide/instructor, learning the ropes etc. However given that so many more people are skiing off piste / backcountry these days the mortality rate seems fairly stable.

Personally I think your film is a reallly good idea, people are skiing over crevasses off the Grands Montets without being aware of it. I know I did when I first skied there when I was much, much younger. I remember skiing off the top with my mate Steve and whooping it up down the face. Steve pulled me up and said “do you know you were skiing over crevasses over there”. No I didn’t, I thought it was a ski resort and wouldn’t have crevasses.

Your kidding! . Most people who read PisteHors are too scared to even leave their living room !!! It is a liturgyy of death and destruction.

Yes, pistehors.com has turned a little bit miserable recently David I agree, but I think that’s partly a reflection of the bad start to this season and also the fact that a number of mountain professionals hang out here. I do sometimes wonder if we need to discuss avalanches in such depth after the event, what if a victims family read some of our comments?

I have to admit, TGR is a happier place to hang out :-(

Perhaps we should try and brighten things up a bit and get back to some of those tour maps and stories that seemed to be more common here previously

Some of the victim’s families do read the reports here. Indeed for some people it is almost their only source of information. The recent Corsican avalanche which involved an American national is a case in point. His friends in the ‘States had not heard of him for six years and while they were very upset to hear of his death they at least had some idea what had happened to him. I try and keep any reports down to facts which may be of use rather than luride speculation. It doesn’t always work out well but compared to the almost total lack of information when I started reports in 2001/2 I think it is a useful service.

TGR has its own style but did you check out some of the photos in the January snow conditions section:

http://pistehors.com/news/forums/viewthread/433/