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touring rig dilemma
Posted: 11 October 2010 11:43 AM  
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I am sure I am not the first person to face this dilemma - but I am trying to determine the optimal rig for somebody who is going to be doing long tours/climbs (eg an haute route) but at the same time wants to have a rig which is really powerful/secure for the descent. I know dynafit bindings are the ultimate in lightness, and that Marker dukes/barrons are probably too heavy for long climbs - but is there something that works well in between the two?
I am considering setting up K2 Coombas (seems a great light off-piste ski) with Fritschi Freeride Plus or the new Marker S12 touring bindings (both light, but have good downhill performance) . Does anybody have any experience of using such a rig for long tours? any other suggestions/insights would be really appreciated.
Thanks!

 
 
Posted: 11 October 2010 01:17 PM   [ # 1 ]  
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In short, a go everywhere, does everything, no compromise rig?

The Coomba seems to be the Coomback for 2011 if I’m not mistaken. Pretty wide and reasonably light. 3.6kg the pair in 174 is not bad, they will probably feel a bit lighter due to the width. I see they have a rockered spatula but it is not so pronounced as to totally sacrifice edge grip, that said k2 themselves say it is more a soft snow ski.

As you say the question is which binding. I ski a similar sized Atomic ski (although a bit lighter) with Dynafiddles. On a ski this wide I think the touring boot/binding interface struggles a bit with the torque, especially if you have a heavy sack.

The main problem with heavy bindings is if you are touring with people on light gear. Like for like you will have to expend more energy and you can arrive at the top too tired to take advantage of your super wide skis.... but that all depends on fitness, youth etc.

The Marker F12 would be tempting to put on this ski, there is still the issue of not being able to swap from tour to ski mode without removing your boot but this depends on the kind of touring you plan to do… an “up and down” it won’t matter much. The other thing is that it is a new binding, what teething problems will they have this year? The Marker Dukes and Barons seem to have been pretty solid but will the “diet” have weakened any crucial parts?

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0983-marker-tour-binding-wins-ispo-2010-backcountry-award/

I think I would go F12 rather than Freeride personally but remember that Coombs himself used Dyanfits.

 
 
Posted: 11 October 2010 04:50 PM   [ # 2 ]  
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Key point is what David raised: Comparing speed with your partners on the uphills ... (versus safety - enjoyment - and comparing - on the downhills).

Any tour in Europe can be done with heavier skis + bindings, if start early enough and go slow enough. I even climbed Mont Blanc starting from the valley floor in Chamonix on Fritschi Diamir bindings and old not-light Tua Crossride skis. (It astonishes me how slowly lots of parties climb, who successfully finish the Chamonix-Zermatt HR.)

But if it bothers you that you might have trouble keeping up with your chosen partners, then lighter skis + bindings might be for you. Now it’s likely that even if you’re not “bothered”, you’ll still push harder unconsciously to “keep up”, so could get to the top with muscles more tired than if you had (rationally) maintained a slower pace. But note that the key leg muscle groups for skiing down (knee extension + hip extension) are different (opposite) from the key muscle groups (hip flexion + knee flexion) for specific lifting of the weight of skis + bindings going up.
i.e. if your “quads” are tired at the top of the climb, it’s not mainly from the weight of bindings + skis, but from all the stuff in your pack (since that’s what the knee extension muscles are lifting).

I’ve found that I’m fast enough climbing on my Fritschi Diamirs to more or less keep up with partners living year-round in France. So what matters more to me is feeling safer on downhills (esp steep icy slopes) which my French partners get me out on in springtime, and having fun skiing in tracked-up snow and crud and crust (which appears on the majority of days in Europe nowadays).

So when I needed to replace my skis last April, I got a newer pair of Fritschi bindings and had them mounted on a slightly heavier pair of skis (with an extra titanium top-sheet or something).

Note that if you ski uphill lots, or live in an area with steep hills or stairways (as I do) where you can train a lot pre-season climbing with extra weight on your feet or ankles, then the specific muscles will develop speed + endurance, and heavier skis aren’t going to be a critical factor out on a tour.

But if all your pre-season fitness was with trainers on your feet, then on holiday you suddenly load skis + bindings on your feet, well that’s going to have a noticeable impact on climbing speed.

On the other hand if you haven’t practiced for several months re-attaching your tricky lightweight binding on a steep slope, and you’re fiddling with that while your buddies in their easy-to-use bindings are continuing up the hill, then you haven’t gained.

Ken

P.S. I prefer to tour with people who are slow + steady climbing up, and then can reliably handle a wide variety of snow conditions getting down. Because the slowness going up is predictable and managable: I can use my energy to break an easier track, or climb ahead or off to the side to ski an extra run, and we still meet at the top.
But when the weather is closing in and we’re retreating, I don’t want to suddenly find out that my partner is falling on one turn out of four because they can’t make their light skis work in crud snow. Or their binding doesn’t release and they sprain their knee and now instead of being back warm in my car, I’m still out in wind + wet in a rescue.

[ Edited: 11 October 2010 05:12 PM by KenR]
 
 
Posted: 15 October 2010 11:19 PM   [ # 3 ]  
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If you have not purchased AT boots yet, and you want a light weight setup that is solid (assuming you are not a heavy/aggressive skier), Dynafit bindings on those K2s, Movement Shaman/Red Apple 74 et al would be fine....

I feel that Marker or Fritschi bindings on a touring ski is a bit pointless....they are freeride bindings....should be mounted on a powerful ski…

 
 
Posted: 16 October 2010 02:58 AM   [ # 4 ]  
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Ross - 15 October 2010 11:19 PM

I feel that Marker or Fritschi bindings on a touring ski is a bit pointless

Unless you know two or three friends who broke leg bones when their binding didn’t release. And you think that breaking a leg bone out in the backcountry could be really serious—even life-threatening, if a helicopter cannot be called, or cannot fly because of weather.

And you want a binding based on technology whose release safety principles been refined and improved thru millions of skier-days and thousands of documented accidents—rather than one who’s primary design goal was saving weight.

Unless you lost the last six days of your ski holiday and flew home early because your Dynafit binding didn’t release cleanly on the second day, and you got a very severe leg bruise (and you feel rather lucky that you did not actually break your leg)—what happened to me earlier this year.

Not that Fritschi or Marker are guaranteed to release more reliably than Dynafit (or can even be statistically demonstrated to be safer)—but it’s the way to bet.
--------------
Long before Fritschi was thought of as a “free-ride” binding, it was a touring binding, and lots of us continue to be very happy touring on Fritschi (and find it “pointless” that some people go out touring on a racing binding)

A selected list of major peaks I’ve done on my Fritschi bindings:
France:
* Mont Blanc, starting from Chamonix hotel de ville, using no lifts
* Dome de Neige des Ecrins
* Grand Ruine (Ecrins)
* Aiguille d’Argentiere
* Grande Casse
* Mont Pourri
* Dome de la Sache
* Aiguille de la Grande Sassiere
Switzerland:
* Dufourspitze
* Monte Rosa (Signalkuppe + Zumsteinspitze)
* Castor
* Piz Bernina
* Piz Ketsch
* Toedi

Ken

[ Edited: 16 October 2010 03:18 AM by KenR]
 
 
Posted: 17 October 2010 10:04 PM   [ # 5 ]  
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My point is that if you are specifically buying a lightweight ski to be light....why mount heavy marker or fritschi bindings on it? that is illogical....

As for non-release, that is a risk you run on any bindings. You are possibly better off skiing carefully/slowly/quietly/technically better and doing specific strength training on certain muscles (hamstring, vastus medialis and others) to lessen the risk of fracture/ligament injuries.